Ignition trigger went bad ?

[mincehead]

Ahaaa, that`s the one, sorry Bill my confusion. You do talk of the silentHektik stuff a bit and that`s where i`m confused. Thanks again.
Oh and me?
I`m in not so sunny Scotland UK, although the sun is out at the moment.
What is the current price for the Ignitech ignition from your good self Bill? It IS on my shopping list.

[Bill Jurgenson]

http://www.dansmc.com/cdiignition.htm

he starts off by stating he don't know nothin

true to form he does, at his own admission, lump all forms together. That is not permissible. Capacitor Discharge Ignitions in motorcycles do not use the battery nor do they have coils in the same sense. I was hard put to find a decent shot of one. Most of the pictures on google show everything BUT the right coil. This is one:

forget the black box
You see the coil has only one lead in and one out to the plug. The iron core is grounded as always and the lead in is plus. Already high voltage coming from the capacitor that has discharged, it is stepped some more. The CDI (which we do not have) is not just a switch, it is a voltage storage and amplifier, the actual spark current being switched by a thyristor (used to be at least) which is controlled by the CPU. Juice is taken directly from the flywheel coil, usually a dedicated ignition coil (the source coil in the article) separate from the lighting (if any).
They are very similar to magnetos in the way they work.
Basically all CDIs work like this and altho everyone calls the black box a CDI, most in fact are not and one should get in the habit of using the correct term.
The XTZ generator has no source coil at all:

Screen shot 2012-04-08 at 11.21.08 AM.jpg (35.55 KiB) Viewed 7030 times

Battery ignitions work differently. At the lowest level, a breaker point which is normally closed is opened by a cam driven by the camshaft, interrupting the ground lead to the coil. This is a true transformer with two low voltage input- and a high voltage output leads. I was even harder put to find our coil with Google; lots of car coils, more CDI coils (wrong again) and lots of pencil coils.

Screen shot 2012-04-08 at 10.51.33 AM.jpg (11.06 KiB) Viewed 7030 times

BTW, pencil coils are coils and typically have 3 spade connectors: +12 (or 24), ground and the switched ground from the black box.

Two spade connectors, plus 12v from the battery (ignition switch or relay) and ground from the black box. This true coil transforms the 12v primary to more like 30000v. not quite that simple but basically, very basically.
The black box, correctly called a Transistor Controlled Ignition, opens the breaker point as it were, the CPU calculating the correct advance timing as designed, static advance is given by the position of the pickup itself, in our case at 3ºBTDC, getting this information from the number and type of noses on the flywheel. These noses are not magnets (incorrect in the article), any piece of iron will do. The SH rotor is a sheetmetal stamping:

my racer

5 noses at 12, 1, 3, 6, 9 the 1 o'clock nose signaling once around and TDC (top dead center), the 9 o'clock nose is the actual trigger. SH's tripleSpark needs 5 noses, the XTZ has only four of which the long 11-12 o'clock signals once around. One could mill down the top long one to the same size as the other three and then add the fifth to make a SH TripleSpark work. I think the Ignitech is the better way to go here.

Here is a much better basic article on ignition systems that gets things right:
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

[mincehead]

I`ll happily bow to your superior knowledge Bill and can only apologise for not reading that link in advance!

[Bill Jurgenson]

I did forget one very important point about CDIs.
The source coil generates a relatively high voltage with each revolution and this is stored in the capacitor or condensor. This high voltage is discharged thru the electronic gate to the coil which then steps it up more.

From the outside, one can usually tell what kind to expect. Kickstart bikes, especially basically off-road kinds have CDIs and they are happy without a battery.

E-start bikes will have a TCI. Without the battery, nada.

There are exceptions both very modern and quite old.
The 1954 BSA has a magneto and has no turn-on switch at all, the battery is only for the brake light. You shut down with a kill button which shorts out the breakers of the magneto.
so actually no exception as far as function is concerned.
the little 1954 Mondial has a battery ignition with a bonafided DC generator with brushes and of course kick starter.

seen in front of the external flywheel, the engine is running. It has electronic breaker point from Laubersheimer but is otherwise authentic with manual spark advance.

The 1954 BSA has a magneto and has no turn-on switch at all, the battery is only for the brake light. You shut down with a kill button which shorts out the breakers of the magneto.

left behind the cylinder, driven off the cam, the chain drives the generator in front and at the bottom the oil pump. The gear box is separate.

the 1978 Ducati 900SS has both kickstarter and battery ignition.

It has an early electronic ignition with two pickups, one for each cylinder.

Both no battery, no running.

[DAVID THOMPSON]

a note to all
try not to get shocked from any of these systems
at the least it HURTS
but many produce voltages and current levels that can kill you...

rule from my father "YOUR FINGERS DO NOT MAKE A GOOD VOLT METER "
and read the safety labels under the seat on a bmw k bike model from the early 1990's
DAVE

[Srinath]

This ignition box uses a TCI. So is there a reason we cant swap in a TCI from another TCI fitted jap bike - like a virago 750 for example - a well understood and modified and repaired and serviced and pretty much an open book of an ignition box ?
We could use 1/2 of it on the mz, and when it goes out switch to the other 1/2.

Or the first one of its kind I rememeber seeing - a yamaha vision. (sorry I didn't see your link). That page has been the back bone of all ignition box mods and repairs going back to I dunno 1929.

The reason I'd Pick a 750 virago is - 1 I've adapted that to both my virago 535 and my virago 1100 in the past few years. The 535 I used a 82 metal box 750 and the 1100 I ran a 91 750 box. The 1100's box has vacuum advance in addition to dwell based advance but vacuum advance is not needed, we can get rid of it really.

The Transistor in the MZ's ignitor I have ordered and am waiting for it to get here, that is my first step, a $3 solution as opposed to a lot of experimenting with the 750 virago and the MZ's wiring diagram.
Oh I also would try a 80 or later xs650 ignitor. Its got 1 trigger cos that bike is a 360 twin.

All these bikes I would think have similar advance curves to the MZ's.
I better put up pics of the guts of the ignition box asap.

The silent hektik system is pretty similar to what is in a GS500. An advancer with a nose and the trigger coils mounted on the engine case. The 2004+ is nearly the same, the 89-00 is a single prong.

Cool.
Srinath.

[Srinath]

How do you remove the alternator rotor ?
I think a harmonic balancer puller - but well, is there a different/better way ?
Thanks.
Srinath.

[Srinath]

OK I managed to pull the alternator rotor off the crank. The whole thing looked good and clean, however it looked an awful lot like the woodruff key on the left of the crank seemed to be too low for it to stick in the rotor letting the rotor get off the groove - Is that even possible.
Anyway I am I guess clutching @ straws @ this point to explain everything that was happening on this bike. So I am recapping those again.

1. Clunk noise from very distinctly from the left side @ starting and mainly when it doesn't start.
2. A few weeks ago it stopped starting at all.
3. The rotor was super super super hard to remove.

Is any of this familiar to anyone.

Cool.
Srinath.

[Bill Jurgenson]

if the rotor has never been pulled, it IS "super hard" to remove.
For the same reason, it cannot have moved on the taper.
That is not to say that such does not happen; it can, but only if -
1) the flywheel was not tightened properly after pulling;
2) a replacement key is too large, thus not allowing the taper to seat at all;
3) the taper and/or flywheel are damaged and thus can no longer seat properly.
In either case, the woodruff key will be sheared off. Its purpose is to position only, not to secure. That is the purpose of the taper.

As long as the key stands proud of the shaft, that is sufficient.

When the engine kicks back while starting, the sprague clutch clanks.
with use and kickbacks the surfaces if the freewheel get rough and can keep the freewheel gear from centering itself. If the wear is too extreme, the clutch can have a tendency to lock.
When this is the case, the Starter can turn the engine only with extreme effort, sounding more like a coffee grinder.
Normally, it is enuf to grind both clutch surfaces smooth, removing as little as possible.

What do you mean by "it doesn't start at all."?
It turns over but nothing happens or it doesn't turn over at all?

[Srinath]

The rotor was very very tight, and I got it off rather surprisingly with a whack of the mallet sideways and outward. Sorta like a sliding hammer type. I am thinking its easier to pull it with a sliding hammer + balancer puller combo type unit.

Ok So I think I get the fact it was not spinning on the shaft. See the woodruff key was maybe 2-2.5mm up when seated in the groove. If I wasn't having these problems I wouldn't even think it was a problem.

The motor cranks and it cranks well but doesn't start.

I think I will check the sprague and the mating face on the freewheel hub, if those are nice I guess i will consider buying them new and replacing it.

Thanks 1,000,000 Bill,
Cool.
Srinath.

[Srinath]

Ooooo I have a fundamental question. I guess I should have asked before I did this ...
But will a 12 amp battery like the 12n9 something battery I put in it in place of the original affect anything. Though the battery was in it for weeks and it started several times and clocked a few 100 miles before it died this way.
Thanks.
Srinath.

[radiograf]

I think you'll find that the 12n9? battery is a 9amp not a 12amp. Daft question time, did you try charging the battery before all your efforts? It's just that in the past I've had simular problems caused by this. If you don't have enough current in the system, there is not enough energy in the ht spark to jump the plug gap when in the engine, even if the engine will turn over.

[Srinath]

I ran most of last year with a 9 amp sealed battery. Then in september the bike didn't start and I parked it. Then this year I went crazy trying to figure out why it wont start, it cranked well but never started - till of course the battery went dead several times - so I changed it and I finally found it had a disconneced ignition coil. Connected it and vroom.

So 3-400 miles and 4-5 weeks later, no start again, cranks well, sparks there, gas is there and no start.

That is where I am right now.

Cool.
Srinath.

[radiograf]

The compressed mixture in the cylinder has a higher resistance than atmospheric air, so it is possible to get a spark with the plug out, but not in the engine. try connecting another battery in parallel (+ to + and - to -). This should give you more current for the same voltage, and see if it will start. If it does, then I suggest that either your new battery is at fault, you're not charging properly, or you have a faulty coil, ht lead and cap, or plug. Check the cheapest thing first!

[Srinath]

Yes I was sorta going in that direction myself in a way, but I am pretty certain the alternator is good as is the regulator. Which was why I was suspicious that the ignition box was going ... and openng it I basically tested that transistor and it tested - well my transistor tester tested it as questionable, and I know questionable transistors trust me ... OK fine dont trust me, but I am a wanna be receiver repair maven ... or is that haven ... anyway, I have fixed receivers with rows of transistors, diodes, power modules and rectifier bridges out the wazoo.
BTW I built my own regulator rectifier ~20 years ago in india and well while it was 3 X the size of the original, it did work a few years - same as the original kawasaki part.
Anyway, my next step is to clean and reassemble everything and replace that transistor and see what that goes.
Cool.
Srinath.